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Citing Podcasts and Websites
Episode 102: April 11, 2008

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Grammar Girl here.

Today's topic is how to deal with electronic citations.

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Listener Question

Now to get started, here's a listener question:

Hi, Grammar Girl. My name is Laura and I am a teacher of 9th-grade English and a big fan of your podcast. I've used your podcast in my classroom and the Quick and Dirty Tips definitely come in handy. My question is how do I cite your podcast and podcasts in general? Do you know of a website that keeps really up to date on how to cite things, especially citing things from the Web?

Thanks, Laura. All three of the major style players, the Modern Language Association, the American Psychological Association, and The Chicago Manual of Style, have issued guidelines on how to cite electronic sources. I'm not aware of a specific website that lists examples of how to cite podcasts from all three sources together, but you can do a search on Google for something like "Chicago cite a podcast" and find examples for each style. Instead of telling you how to write citations, because it's kind of a visual thing, I'm putting examples in the transcript of this podcast. I’ll show you on the website how to cite a podcast and an article on a website in all three of the main formats. So I guess now you could say that Grammar Girl is a good source on how to cite things!

But today I would like to talk about some other things related to citations.

Why Citations Are Important

First, people have asked me why it's important to include citations in the first place.

Aside from the fact that many teachers or editors require you to include citations in your work, including citations is necessary to acknowledge the people whose work you've incorporated into your document. Not including citations is a quick route to plagiarism: more commonly known as taking credit for someone else's words or ideas (1). Including citations is mandatory when you've drawn on someone else's original work or quoted someone verbatim.

Even when citations aren't necessary to avoid plagiarism, including citations helps people who want to learn more about your topic. Citations are a great starting point for further research. And including citations adds credibility to your writing. Frankly, I include citations at the end of most of my transcripts to head off people who disagree with my recommendations relating to points of style or topics where there are common misconceptions. I'm completely open to disagreement and discussion, but I don't just make this stuff up; I research every topic I cover. I'm almost always sorry when I don't include references on the website, and more than once I've gone back, reconstructed my work, and added them in.

Risks of Citing Electronic Sources

OK, so now that I've convinced you to include citations, it's time to think about the special risks of citing an electronic source like a website, podcast, or blog.

First, you have to determine whether it's a credible source, and second, you have to worry about whether it will still exist tomorrow.

Credibility

Determining whether a source is credible is subjective, but here are a few things to look for and consider:

Can you tell who wrote the site? And if so, does the author seem to have any expertise in the area you are researching? The Stanford Cancer Center is likely to be a more credible source than Aunt Mary's Kancer Page.
Has the website been reviewed by experts? Does it bear a seal of approval or adhere to content standards? For example, health sites that want to boost their credibility adhere to standards set by the Health on the Net Foundation.
Can you tell when the page you are looking at was written? Something written recently is generally more credible than something that hasn't been updated in years.
Does the page cite other credible sources you can check? (There's that point about citations adding credibility again!)
Does it sound too good to be true? If it does, it probably is.
Is the site selling something based on the information it’s providing? If so, be wary.
Do other credible sites link to the site? You can find out who links to a site by doing a specialized search on Google. Enter link:URL into the search box. For example, you could enter link:http://www.genetichealth.com (a website I helped launch) and learn that sites that link to it include a Japanese genome center, the Lance Armstrong Foundation, and a variety of hospitals.
Are there a lot of typos? If there are a lot of language mistakes, it can mean that there are a lot of factual mistakes, too.

Finally, use common sense and evaluate the arguments yourself. It's up to you to determine whether a site's conclusions are actually supported by its statements.

Permanence

You have control when you’re evaluating a site’s credibility, but you have less control over the fact that pages might disappear or change their Web address. If it's an important source, you should consider printing out the page or saving it on your own computer as HTML, a screenshot, or an audio or video file. If you find that a Web page is gone and you haven't had a chance to save it, you can search for a copy at the Internet Archive (also known as the Wayback Machine), at http://web.archive.org.

Despite the risks, an abundance of credible information resides on the Web, and you shouldn't dismiss a source simply because it is in an electronic format.

Citation Formats

Finally, it's good style to use a consistent format for your references. You can go to the Grammar Girl section of QuickAndDirtyTips.com to see examples of citation styles from the Modern Language Association, American Psychological Association, and The Chicago Manual of Style.

Web Bonus

Citing a Web Page

[Note: There are different kinds of Web pages, and many require different formatting. This example is for a Web article that is part of a larger website. Also, a quirk in our website requires us to shorten URLs. It is better to write out the original URL.]

American Psychological Association Style (2, 3)

Fogarty, M. (2006, October 14). Effect Versus Affect. Quick and Dirty Tips Website. Retrieved April 9, 2008, from http://tinyurl.com/28qhue

Chicago Manual of Style (2, 4)

Fogarty, Mignon. “Effect Versus Affect,” Quick and Dirty Tips Website, October 14, 2006, http://tinyurl.com/28qhue (accessed April 9, 2008).

Modern Language Association Style (2)

Fogarty, Mignon. “Effect Versus Affect.” Grammar Girl's Quick and Dirty Tips for Better Writing. 14 Oct. 2006. Quick and Dirty Tips Website. 9 Apr. 2008 <http://tinyurl.com/28qhue>.

Citing a Podcast

American Psychological Association Style (5, 6)

Fogarty, M. (Host) (2006, October 14). Effect Versus Affect [Podcast]. Grammar Girl's Quick and Dirty Tips for Better Writing. Gilbert, AZ: Quick and Dirty Tips Network. Retrieved April 9, 2008, from http://tinyurl.com/28qhue

Chicago Manual of Style (2, 4)

Fogarty, M. 2006. "Effect Versus Affect." Grammar Girl's Quick and Dirty Tips for Better Writing. Podcast audio program. Gilbert, AZ: Quick and Dirty Tips Network, October 14 http://tinyurl.com/28qhue (accessed April 9, 2008).

Modern Language Association Style (2, 7, 8, 9, 10)

[Note: I was unable to find a definitive source on citing a podcast in MLA style. My edition is old, and websites provided various recommendations, suggesting that the MLA may not have issued one guideline yet. What follows is my best-guess recommendation until I can find a definitive answer.]

Fogarty, Mignon. "Effect Versus Affect." Grammar Girl's Quick and Dirty Tips for Better Writing. 14 Oct. 2006. Quick and Dirty Tips Network. 9 Apr. 2008. <http://tinyurl.com/28qhue>.

Administrative

While you're at QuickAndDirtyTips.com, you can also get your 30-day free trial of GoToMyPC by clicking on the ad or the link to GoToMyPC.com/podcast. That's GoToMyPC.com/podcast.

This week, three lucky listeners win a copy of Bonnie Trenga's book The Curious Case of the Misplaced Modifier: How to Solve the Mysteries of Weak Writing. Bonnie is my long-time copy editor, and this is a cute little grammar book that uses a solve-the-mystery format to make writing rules fun. The books are even signed! So if you're subscribed to our e-mail newsletter, check your inbox to see if you've won. For people who didn't win and are interested, I'll put a link to the book on the Grammar Girl website.

Questions and comments for me go to feedback@quickanddirtytips.com or the voicemail line at 206-338-GIRL. Also this week, the Get-It-Done Guy has a great episode about how to subversively lead a meeting even if you're not in charge, so check it out at QuickAndDirtyTips.com.

That's all. Thanks for listening.

References
1. plagiarism. Dictionary.com. WordNet® 3.0. Princeton University. http://tinyurl.com/355zx5(accessed April 10, 2008).
2. Aaron, J. The Little, Brown Essential Handbook. New York: Pearson Education, 2006, pp. 156-58.
3. "Frequently Asked Questions," APA Website, http://tinyurl.com/6fsoov (accessed April 9, 2008).
4. "Chicago-Style Citation Quick Guide," Chicago Manual of Style Website,
http://tinyurl.com/35v8ru (accessed April 9, 2008).
5. "Citing Sources: APA Style," Lansing Community College Website, http://tinyurl.com/2n7lyf (accessed April 9, 2008).
6. "APA Citation Style," University of British Columbia Website, http://tinyurl.com/5652kq (accessed April 9, 2008).
7. "How To Cite References--Chicago Style," Murdoch University Website, http://tinyurl.com/6zdly5 (accessed April 9, 2008).
8. "MLA Style Guide," University of Florida Website, http://tinyurl.com/59fge5
(accessed April 9, 2008).
9. "Citing Sources: MLA Style," Lansing Community College Website, http://tinyurl.com/5bkkeq (accessed April 9, 2008).
10. "Create an MLA Works Cited Page," University of Wisconsin-Madison Website, http://tinyurl.com/6jkowr (accessed April 9, 2008).

Comments (20) for Citing Podcasts and Websites | Subscribe to Comment

Dan Harasty Says:
4/29/2008 1:19:49 PM

When weakness are a strength: You mention that electronic sources "may not be around when you need them in the future". While that is true, consider the upside as well: that electronic source are "more likely to be accessible by all" (say, than a reference to an obscure, print-only journal); "more likely to be timely" (tracking current events); and "more likely to be updated when errors are found" (try to do that with a million printed copies in circulation).

As for credibility, well, your comments apply equally well to printed works... and subjectivity like having an "official sounding name" or "having an official seal" can be the implements of pulling the wool over unwary eyes in either medium.

Finally, you MISSED a FANTASTIC opportunity to mention "Why Bother to Cite At All": it is precisely the question of credibility. Short of having conducted the research personally myself, I can't KNOW if the cancer statistics I cite are accurate... but if I present some, cite their source, and draw some conclusions for a new public policy or medical procedure, then as an author and commentator, I am to a greater degree buffered from criticism if at a later time my proposals are logically sound but based on erroneous data.

WallyV Says:
4/28/2008 12:36:38 AM

GG, I am a long-time listener and big fan of your podcast. Thanks! I also wanted to offer the www.easybib.com site. My two high school kids use it all the time and find it very helpful in finishing up those important projects. -- WRV

David Says:
4/19/2008 11:20:45 AM

Hi! First comment, long-time listener (like since 'cast #1) - I think your show is great! Anyway, I had just listened to this episode and happened to be browsing some Firefox add-ons when I came across this one: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3504 I haven't used it (mostly because I just came upon it, and I don't have a lot of need for citations at the moment), but I thought some of your listeners might like to try it. It apparently does web citations, content archiving, searching, and organizing all within a free Firefox add-on.

Grammar Girl Says:
4/18/2008 1:23:21 AM

Hi, Milly. Simple tense can be past or present. In other words there are two types of simple tense: simple past and simple present. In the sentence you are asking about, "are" goes with "examples." It's plural because I gave multiple examples. I can see how it could be confusing though since there are two kinds of simple tense. I suppose I could have said, "Here are some examples of sentences in the simple tense," or "Here are some examples of the simple tenses."

Milly Says:
4/17/2008 4:54:01 PM

Hi GG. I was reading the episode on the decision to write a novel in Present Tense, and came across the following sentence in your presentation, First here are some examples of simple tense so we're all on the same page. Why is it simple tense and not tenses? You used are, therefore, I assume you were referring to a plural state. Please explain.

Susan G Says:
4/17/2008 1:15:59 AM

Thank you, Grammar Girl. I will always remember that directive.

Grammar Girl Says:
4/16/2008 11:42:01 PM

Hi, Sita. I covered "different from" versus "different than" on this page: http://tinyurl.com/25gcok

Grammar Girl Says:
4/16/2008 11:39:25 PM

Hi, Susan. You should write "one of the wives" or "one of the men."

Grammar Girl Says:
4/16/2008 11:38:10 PM

Hi, Eric. I'm not aware of any agreed upon solution to the long URL problem. I like to use tinyurl.com because it shortens the URL but still points to the original page. On the other hand, if that site ever goes down, the URL information will be lost forever.

Mark Says:
4/16/2008 6:18:57 PM

I also noticed the "backslash backslash" issue. I'm a web developer, so it drove me a bit crazy. Love the podcast!

Susan G Says:
4/15/2008 4:23:37 PM

I came upon your website yesterday, I lament my loss. I have read quite a few posts and comments. As a budding writer I stagger whenever I have to use the following term. For example, "one of the wives," or should it be, "one of the wife," or "one of the men," as opposed to "one of the man." Please help me. This is a real grammar conundrum for me.

Gabby Says:
4/15/2008 2:54:55 PM

I just want to Thank you!! LOVE the Podcast!

Eric M. Says:
4/14/2008 7:29:30 PM

I see you ran into one of the problems with your examples that plagues my 6th grade students when citing sources: the long url. The biggest problem is when they try to cite a url that has a query string, such as www.example.com/index.php?longrandomstringofcharactersthatstretchesbeyondtheaddressbar. Is there a commonly agreed upon solution for this? I've been telling my students to drop everything after the ?. No one is ever going to type that in, but showing the ? alerts me that the site used a query string.

Jessica Says:
4/13/2008 8:51:19 PM

I ran to this site as soon as I heard "backslash backslash," but your other sharp listeners were already all over it :)

john Says:
4/12/2008 8:12:58 PM

Hi Grammar Girl: long time listener, first time commenter. Love the show. You should correct your use "backslash" and "slash", and do a show about it. With the advent of the web, and the decline of DOS, we can now use the proper, traditional terminology.

SitaKouleshareiny Says:
4/12/2008 1:11:58 PM

Hey GrammarGirl, I love your shows. I was wondering if you could do a show on "different from/to/than", unless of course this issue hasn't already been covered. Thank you and keep up the amazing work.

Dmitri Says:
4/12/2008 2:17:22 AM

as i heard http colon backslash backslash, immediately came to the site, but I see that Gabriel was first :-)

Gabriel Lombardi Says:
4/11/2008 1:21:27 PM

I always enjoy your podcasts. I was amused to hear you say "HTTP colon backslash backslash..." when citing the Wayback Machine. You undoubtedly know that those are forward slashes, not backslashes. Only Microsoft (aka, the Evil Empire) uses backslashes as separators, but the Web does not. I'm sure the Dark Lord, er Bill Gates, is rubbing his hands together and smiling.

Grammar Girl Says:
4/11/2008 11:40:27 AM

DS: Thank you for catching the error. My content management system stripped out the underlining and I didn't notice. (The period was just an error.) I've taken your message down so people aren't confused now that the problem is fixed. Thanks also for adding the resource http://www.mla.org/style/style_faq/style_faq4

Scott Perez-Fox Says:
4/11/2008 10:24:19 AM

If anyone is looking for an online bibliography resource, check out http://www.easybib.com/ — it was a massive help for me during grad school and they have a variety of sources and media available, all automated! Not sure if they do in-text citations, best to poke around the site.