Episode Transcript

Writing Dates
Episode 89: December 28, 2007

Grammar Girl here.

Today's topic is dates.

This podcast is sponsored by GoToMyPC. Use GoToMyPC to take your office computer with you wherever you go. Visit http://gotomypc.com/podcast for your free 30 day trial.

Can you believe it's already almost 2008? Another year gone. Since New Year's Day gets people thinking about the date, I'll answer a few date-related questions. 

Pronouncing Numbers

Here's one from a listener named Michael to get us started. (It will seem as if he's getting a little off track, but it will all make sense in a minute.)

[Listener question about dates and British English in wedding invitations.]

The reason Michael's question about British English in wedding invitations is relevant to how to pronounce dates is that as a general rule the year is pronounced “two thousand AND eight” in Britain and “two thousand eight” in America (1). That's the general rule; it's quite common to hear people use the and in America, although from the number of e-mail messages I get complaining about it, I'd say a lot of Americans have been taught that it's wrong.

So back to Michael's question, I believe the reason you see the year written as two thousand AND eight in wedding invitations is the same reason you see the other British spellings—Americans tend to think British English sounds more formal, and they want their invitations to sound special. Some people might consider it an affectation, but it's hard to fault someone for doing something unusual when they're already walking around carrying flowers and dressing up in a suit or gown that's nothing like they'd wear in real life. There isn't much about weddings that is normal.

Back to dates.

Shockingly, it's also acceptable to say the year is “twenty-oh-eight.” I can hear some of you freaking out  about both breaking 2008 into two separate numbers and using the word oh instead of zero, but I have three credible sources to back me up (1, 2, 3). Calling zero “oh” still bugs a lot of people so I can't recommend doing it, but it's not incorrect. 

Ordinal Numbers Versus Cardinal Numbers

There are two kinds of numbers you can use to talk about a specific day: an ordinal number and a cardinal number. Cardinal numbers represent amounts like one, two, and three. Ordinal numbers represent a place in a series like first, second, and third.

When you're writing out a date like January 1, 2008 (in the American style), the day is a cardinal number. So you should never write January 1st, 2008. The weird thing though is when you're speaking, even though it is written as January 1, you say, “January first” (1). So when you are reading a date that is written January 1, 2008, you say “January first, two thousand eight.” That's probably why a lot of people get confused about how to write it.

The instance where it is OK to use an ordinal number is when you are writing the 1st of January, because you are placing the day in a series: of all the days in January, this day is the first. For example, your invitations could say, “Please join us for a party on the first of January.” In that case, it's correct to use the ordinal number first.

Commas and Dates

Next, there are some rules about commas and dates. When you're writing out a full date in the American style, you put a comma between the day and the year, so New Year's Day is January 1,  2008. (4) Different style guides make different recommendations about whether to put a comma after the year. Some say to put a comma after the year in a sentence like January 1, 2008, will be a fun day (5, 6), and some say to leave the comma out after 2008 (7, 8). I prefer to leave the comma out.

Starting a Sentence with a Year

And what about starting a sentence with a number? Although the general rule is that you shouldn't start a sentence with an arabic number, some (but not all (9, 10)) sources make exceptions for years (11). Therefore, some people may object, but you wouldn't be completely out of line to write a sentence like 2008 will be the year I keep my resolutions, with 2008 written as a number instead of written out with words. Still, if you want to be safe, it's better to rephrase the sentence so the year isn't at the beginning.

Apostrophes and Dates

If you want to abbreviate the year, you can use an apostrophe to replace the initial two and zero, for example, writing, “What are your plans for [apostrophe] '08?” If you want to refer to a whole decade, for example if you want to reminisce about the '80s, you write '80s with an apostrophe replacing the 19 and an s at the end. I loved the '80s. And you don't need an apostrophe before that final s (10, 12, 13).

Administrative Stuff

I got especially carried away putting extra material on the website this week. If you read the transcript at quickanddirtytips.com, you'll find more information about saying “oh” instead of “zero,” the “aughts” versus the “naughts,” how to write New Year's Day, and alternative calendar systems. While you're there, check out the video a listener named James Crouch put together to go with the “Grammar Got Run Over by a Reindeer” song. Also, The Mighty Mommy has an excellent episode about getting children to sleep through the night. Finally, there is a quiz on Facebook to with this episode.

If you'd  like to submit a question to the show, you can e-mail it to feedback@quickanddirtytips.com or leave a message on the voicemail line at 206-338-4475.


That's all. Thanks for listening.

 

Web Bonus Extravaganza


Oh Dear!

It is acceptable to call zero “oh” when you are using it in a series of numbers (1). For example, it is common to call the interstate highway designated 101 the “one-oh-one” and we all call James Bond agent “double-oh-seven.”

The Naughts?

Jillian from Pennsylvania asked about referring to the 2000s as “the aughts.” It's one way that people do refer to the 2000s, but if you're going to go that route, “the naughts” is better.  Aught is commonly misused to mean naught according to Gardner's American English Usage (14).

People also refer to the decade as “the oughts,” which seems just plain wrong to me. The dictionary does list a “cipher of zero” as a definition for ought, but only as an alteration of aught, which is itself an alteration of naught. Perhaps fortunately, none of these names for the first ten years of the 21st century have caught on—Google searches produce a relatively small number of hits.


New Year's Day

Holidays are capitalized, so New Year's Day is capitalized. There is also an apostrophe before the s in Year's because it is referring to the day of the new year. When you use new year generically (as I did in the previous sentence) then it is lowercased.

 

Grammar Girl Recommended Styles

 

  • 1980s
  • '80s
  • January 1, 2008 will be a fun day. (No comma after the year)
  • Two thousand eight (Pronounce the year without an “and” before the eight.)
  • Twenty-oh-eight (An acceptable alternative pronunciation for the year 2008)
  • I will keep my resolutions in 2008./2008 will be the year I keep my resolutions. (Rewrite sentences to avoid starting with a numeral even if it is a year, but don't bother if doing so will make your sentence awkward or changes your desired emphasis. In the first example, the emphasis is on keeping resolutions this time. In the second example, there is more  emphasis on 2008 being a special year for keeping resolutions.)

Other Calendar Systems

The Gregorian Calendar is the most widely used calendar system today.

Alternative calendar systems include the following:
The Chinese Calendar
The Ethiopian Calendar
The Hebrew Calendar
The Hindu Calendar
The Islamic Calendar
ISO Week Date
The Julian Calendar
The Persian Calendar
(More)

(Thanks to listener Michael Spence for mentioning the Modified Julian Day and inspiring me to include this list of alternative calendar systems.)

References

1.“Numbers,” MED Magazine: The Monthly Web Magazine of Macmillan English Dictionaries. Macmillan Education, July 2004, Issue 21, http://tinyurl.com/2n8j45 (accessed December 27, 2007).
2.Freeman, J. “Numbers Game,” The Boston Globe, January 6, 2006. http://tinyurl.com/3atnbh(accessed December 27, 2007)
3.Garner, B. Garner's Modern American Usage, Oxford: Oxford University Press. 2003, p. 73.
4.Aaron, J. The Little, Brown Essential Handbook, New York: Pearson Education, 2006, p. 73.
5.Goldstein, N., ed. The Associated Press Stylebook and Libel Manual, Reading: Perseus Books, 1998, p. 134.
6. "Commas Needed or Omitted," The Chicago Manual of Style, Chicago: The University of Chicago Press, 2006, section 6.46. http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org (accessed December 27, 2007).
7.Strumpf, M. and Douglas, A. The Grammar Bible, New York: Henry Holt and Company, 2004,  p. 231, 217. 
8.Garner, B. Garner's Modern American Usage, Oxford: Oxford University Press. 2003, p. 222.
9. "The Year Alone," The Chicago Manual of Style, Chicago: The University of Chicago Press, 2006, section 9.33. http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org (accessed December 27, 2007).
11.Goldstein, N., ed. The Associated Press Stylebook and Libel Manual, Reading: Perseus Books, 1998, p. 232.
12. The American Heritage Guide to Contemporary Usage and Style, Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 2005, p. 130.
13."Decades," The Chicago Manual of Style, Chicago: The University of Chicago Press, 2006, section 9.37. http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org (accessed December 27, 2007).


Comments (27) for Writing Dates |  Subscribe to Comment

Gia Says:
10/16/2008 11:18:32 PM
I think that "twenty-oh-eight" sounds weird to me. The cadence is off somehow. I'm fine with going to the "twenty-something" format in 2010 and beyond, but before that, it just wouldn't seem right.
Donna Says:
6/23/2008 1:24:20 PM
I have not been able to find this example in my grammer/punctuation searches. WHen writing: Tuesday, June 24, 2008.... is there supposed to be a comma after Tuesday? Thanks
Kristin Says:
3/21/2008 1:15:01 AM
Thank you very much for pointing out that "twenty-oh-eight" is acceptable. To me, this makes much more sense than saying "two thousand eight," but people always look at me funny when I say a year after 2000. I'm a creature of habit (i.e., consistent), so it sounds nice when I say "twenty-oh-eight" alongside "nineteen hundred," "nineteen-oh-eight," and "ten-oh-eight." I have always, always, always felt that "two thousand eight" is just inconsistent with all the other years we say, since we would never say, "One thousand eight hundred six."
Nancy Says:
2/29/2008 7:37:25 PM
My son came to me with a question that I can't answer. He also asked all of his middle school teachers and they weren't able to answer. I hope someone here can help! When writing a date, why don't you use a comma in the year? I can't seem to find any rule that applies.
Teresa Says:
2/1/2008 8:59:36 AM
Hi, speaking of dates....I was taught that a comma is not needed between the month and the year (January 2008). The only time a comma is needed is between the day and the year (January 1, 2008). Is this correct?
Debra Says:
1/22/2008 7:24:16 PM
Great site. Perhaps a short clarification on the difference between a number and a numeral is in order. I was taught that a number is an idea, a numeral is the symbol to express that idea in writing. Carry on, good people!
Devin Says:
1/21/2008 3:54:45 PM
Some people, especially in business-speak, seem to think it's OK to say "Two-oh-eight" when talking about the year. Also, in journalism, AP style abbreviates certain months. When you've been a reporter or editor for a while, other ways start to look strange.
Albert Says:
1/14/2008 6:50:09 PM
I'd just like to apologise for repeating myself in my previous submission. [But conventions (can) change]. I had read all your tips on proofreading (or copyediting) too!
Albert Says:
1/11/2008 8:06:34 PM
I like what I've read so far, Grammar Girl. As you can probably tell from my accent, I'm English. I'd like to ask why you say that in January 1, 2008, the '1' is a cardinal number, but in 1st January, 2008, the '1st' is an ordinal number - apart from the fact that that is the way you have written them. Since you SAY 'January (the) first', why not WRITE 'January 1st'? Most of what we say and write consists of conventions, which most people have to agree on, otherwise we could not understand each other. But conventions can change, and speech usually changes before writing. I am nearly 60, and I was taught to put full stops (you used to call them periods, but now you seem to call them dots) after Mr, Dr, and so on. Words like phone and bus used to be preceded by an apostrophe to show that they were abbreviations for 'telephone' and 'omnibus'. But conventions change. [I know I began that sentence with a conjunction.] So I now write the date as '1 January', though I was taught to write '1st January'. One other thing - you wrote 'Although the general rule is that you shouldn't start a sentence with an arabic number ...' Does that mean we can begin a sentence ,"MMVIII will be the year I keep my resolutions..."? :-)
Joel Neely Says:
1/7/2008 1:30:50 PM
A friend who teaches elementary school (in the US) was very emphatic in telling me that "and" should only be used between the integral and fractional parts of a number or currency amount (e.g. $1002.95 as "one-thousand two dollars AND ninety-five cents). A more complete mnemonic that I remember from Match classes (a few decades ago ;-) is that "ORD"inal numbers express "ORD"er, while "C"ardinal numbers are the "C"ounting numbers. Thanks for being so quick to fix the reversal! I only wish that other public figures (especially politicians!) were as quick to acknowledge and correct mistakes. ;-)
rpmason Says:
1/4/2008 11:43:26 AM
John, you're absolutely right, all modern dictinaries are descriptive. If they were uncategorically prescriptive then we'd have no need for updated editions. That said, you'll find more usage advice; prescriptive information, if you will; in an American Heritage product than any Merriam-Webster product published after 1960.
John Says:
1/3/2008 3:50:34 PM
rpmason, the American Heritage Dictionary is descriptive. The American Heritage Book of English Usage is quite descriptive as well. Both books state the facts, then offer the usage panel's opinion - but they don't usually say "this is wrong" outright.
Matt Says:
1/3/2008 1:22:58 PM
Dear Greg: I think Tennyson might beg to differ with your prescriptive rule on infinitives ("...better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.") Dear GG: While we're on prescriptive grammar rules, the use of "fun" as an adjective, as in "a fun day" (ugh!), is still considered poor grammar by traditionalists.
Dan L. Says:
1/2/2008 5:21:48 PM
Reminder to Word users: The apostrophe in '80s is a single close-quote, NOT a single open-quote as Word automatically inserts if you have the Smart Quotes feature enabled. One work-around is to hit the single-quote key twice (yielding ''80s), then go back and delete the first quote [the open-quote] while keeping the second quote [the close-quote or apostrophe].
Edith Says:
1/2/2008 4:54:42 PM
The mnemonic I've used for ordinal and cardinal numbers when I teach them to my students (in Spanish) is that ORDinal numbers are the ones you use when you put something in ORDer (first, second, third), while CARDinal numbers are the numbers you find on cards (two of spades, three of diamonds, etc. - you'd never say "second of spades). This seems to do the trick for them.
rpmason Says:
1/2/2008 9:46:43 AM
Amber, You can add 'assure' to the mix, too. I separate insure, ensure, and assure by considering that (in the US) 'insure' means to purchase insurance, 'ensure' means that an action is taken to be sure that something is done, and finally, 'assure' means that someone is putting your mind at ease. The American Heritage Book of English Usage has a good example, "I assure you that we have insured the grounds to ensure that we will be protected in case of a lawsuit stemming from an accident." www dot bartleby dot com. Aside: MW products are 'descriptive,' which means that they tend to describe usage as 'it is being used.' American Heritage products are 'prescriptive,' which means that they tend to describe usage as 'it should be.' That might be a good topic for GG, too.
Amber Says:
12/31/2007 11:37:43 AM
Hi Grammar Girl. I have been very confused about the use of "insure" and "ensure" for quite some time. Mirriam-Webster defines these words as meaning the same thing (to make certain of), and lists these words as synonyms of each other. It drives me nuts when I see them used interchangeably, because I feel like there should be only one proper usage of each word. Is there a right and wrong way to use these words?
Darrell in California Says:
12/31/2007 5:10:12 AM
Grammar Girl, with all this talk about naughts and ciphers you must be a Stuff Smith fan! You'se a-Muggin'!
Grammar Girl Says:
12/30/2007 8:37:18 PM
The transcript is corrected; that's the easiest thing to fix. Now I'm working on the audio file.
Grammar Girl Says:
12/30/2007 8:18:13 PM
Brickin' brackin' #*($(#%@#! I hate it (hate it!) when I get things mixed up like this. I'm sorry. I'll issue an episode recall message and rewrite this show.
Glen and Oscar Says:
12/30/2007 9:52:39 AM
My 8 year-old boy was listening to me listen to the GG podcast and said, "She's got it backwards!" I said, "No way." and I looked it up, only to realize he was right. Are you smarter than a second grader? Me neither. I love your podcast and talk about the nauseous/nauseated controversy almost every day. Sincerely, Glen
Woojoung J Says:
12/29/2007 10:48:43 PM
......
Tom in California Says:
12/29/2007 8:35:07 PM
There's a very good reason not to allow the word "and" in a number description. Consider the following number: one hundred and twenty-five thousandths If "and" is optional, the description above is ambiguous. It could be 100.025 or it could be .125. With the "and" used only to indicate a fractional part, there's no problem, and the value is always 100.025. I happen to be a mathematician, and agree that your definition of ordinal/cardinal is reversed. In fact, in mathematics there are two types of numbers, ordinal and cardinal, and they are the same until you get to the infinite numbers. In English, they are one, two, three, ... and first, second, third, ..., but in math, they are 1, 2, 3,... and 1, 2, 3, ... But there is a first infinite ordinal (usually written with the Greek letter omega), so the ordinals go: 1, 2, 3, ..., omega, omega+1, omega+2, ..., omegax2, omegax2+1, omegax2+2, ..., omegax3, ... ... ... Ordinals are used for ordering, so we could have an ordering with the omega-plus-first element, et cetera, but cardinals are for counting. We talk about things like the "cardinality of a set", meaning the number of elements in the set. Two sets are the same size if they can be matched up, one-to-one. The numbers omega, omega+1, omega+2 are the same size; you can rearrange them match up, so they represent the same sized set, so they have the same cardinality. You have to go a LONG way out the ordinals before you get to the next cardinal. So for mathematicians, every cardinal is an ordinal, but not vice-versa. All the finite ordinals are finite cardinals, but almost all the infinite ordinals are not cardinals.
Mel in Louisiana Says:
12/29/2007 4:16:40 PM
Ouch! Just when I was playing GG for my family while on vacation, you make a huge mistake. jpreardon is exacly right. Your explanation of cardinal and ordinal numbers is exactly backwards. See http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/cardinal+number and http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/ordinal%20number. The trick my teacher taught me nearly 50 years ago was that ordinal refers to the Order of the numbers--'O' goes with 'O', get it?
jpreardon Says:
12/29/2007 3:35:55 PM
Hi GG: Your explanation of ordinal and cardinal numbers is backwards. Ordinal numbers represent a numeral's position (order) in a series (first, second etc.). Cardinal numbers represent an amount (one, two etc.).
Greg in Va. Says:
12/29/2007 10:55:50 AM
Dear GG: Would you consider addressing the tense of the infinitive in English? I once learned (correctly, I hope) that we should use only the present tense of the infinite, so one should not say, "I wish I had been able to have gone," (which might be OK in Latin) but instead "I wish I had been able to go." William Safire once wrote, referring to coffee, "Clinton would have had to have drunk..." Am I on thin ice here? I would have written "would have had to drink." Thanks for your consideration!
Chris Says:
12/29/2007 2:02:50 AM
Hi, I just wanted to let you know all of us at YourSash enjoy your podcast and that we featured you on our blog: http://www.yoursash.com/blog/ - chris

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